Comments on: Rethinking the Five-fold Ministry http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/ Making Him Our Focus, His Word Our Foundation Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:00:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Mark http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-22733 Mark Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:49:11 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-22733 Hi, I have never belonged to any traditional church, I have been baptised by the holy spirit and I have a lovely relationship with Jesus. I find it so hard to believe why man finds it so hard to carry the yoke of Jesus, we are saved by faith and by following the teaching of our Lord , how simple is that? Hi, I have never belonged to any traditional church, I have been baptised by the holy spirit and I have a lovely relationship with Jesus. I find it so hard to believe why man finds it so hard to carry the yoke of Jesus, we are saved by faith and by following the teaching of our Lord , how simple is that?

]]> By: Brett Jacobsen http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-8136 Brett Jacobsen Thu, 11 Oct 2007 04:46:07 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-8136 Response to John, No John, the first church was led by the Spirit of God, not running by the seat of its pants. What is this "hoping that Christ is the head somewhere and running it the right way"? You seem to have little faith and trust in our amazing God who is able to "draw all me to [Himself]" and who is the "good shepherd" who does "know [His] sheep, and [is] known of [His]" (John 12:32-33; John 10:14) He is well able to lead all who are of the Kingdom of Christ (Christ's rule). He Himself will speak, teach, and lead using people for many aspects of His rule. It is imperative that Christ, by the Holy Spirit, can manifest through whoever He wishes, whenever He wishes. We have erred in creating the Clergy caste who have special, official status in the church; as if they have cornered the market on hearing from God. God leads best when He can speak and manifest through who He has chosen to manifest through for that instance, even if they aren't recognised by the state as being official. Of course there are equippers and overseers in the New Testament, but not the hierarchical horror show that has been common place for the past 1900 or so years. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5). No one should be above anyone in the Kingdom... except Jesus, who is above us and between us and God. This doesn't negate authority, it just gives it clear boundaries. In the NT there was a plurality of eldership at all times: there was never to be a person above another. The apostles were sent two by two from Jesus. The other apostles followed suit, working only in teams. The local elders in every city/region were just that- plural elders, not Senior Pastors. If you would like some more clarity on NT leadership (rather than the traditions of men which have been normative) feel free to read chapter six of my book 'Heaven's Underground Blueprint' which has been posted on this site as a five part series called 'Heaven's Underground Leadership Blueprint'. Here are the links: Pt 1- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/10/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-1-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/ Pt 2- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/16/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-2-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/ Pt 3- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/19/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-3-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/ Pt 4- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/24/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-4-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/ Pt 5- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/27/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-5-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/ If you would then like to dialogue more, feel free to email me at bretto@christisall.org Grace and peace, Bretto Response to John,

No John, the first church was led by the Spirit of God, not running by the seat of its pants. What is this “hoping that Christ is the head somewhere and running it the right way”? You seem to have little faith and trust in our amazing God who is able to “draw all me to [Himself]” and who is the “good shepherd” who does “know [His] sheep, and [is] known of [His]” (John 12:32-33; John 10:14) He is well able to lead all who are of the Kingdom of Christ (Christ’s rule). He Himself will speak, teach, and lead using people for many aspects of His rule. It is imperative that Christ, by the Holy Spirit, can manifest through whoever He wishes, whenever He wishes. We have erred in creating the Clergy caste who have special, official status in the church; as if they have cornered the market on hearing from God. God leads best when He can speak and manifest through who He has chosen to manifest through for that instance, even if they aren’t recognised by the state as being official.

Of course there are equippers and overseers in the New Testament, but not the hierarchical horror show that has been common place for the past 1900 or so years. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5). No one should be above anyone in the Kingdom… except Jesus, who is above us and between us and God. This doesn’t negate authority, it just gives it clear boundaries. In the NT there was a plurality of eldership at all times: there was never to be a person above another. The apostles were sent two by two from Jesus. The other apostles followed suit, working only in teams. The local elders in every city/region were just that- plural elders, not Senior Pastors.

If you would like some more clarity on NT leadership (rather than the traditions of men which have been normative) feel free to read chapter six of my book ‘Heaven’s Underground Blueprint’ which has been posted on this site as a five part series called ‘Heaven’s Underground Leadership Blueprint’. Here are the links:

Pt 1- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/10/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-1-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/

Pt 2- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/16/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-2-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/

Pt 3- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/19/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-3-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/

Pt 4- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/24/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-4-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/

Pt 5- http://www.christisall.org/2006/05/27/heavens-underground-leadership-blueprint-pt-5-of-5-by-brett-jacobsen/

If you would then like to dialogue more, feel free to email me at bretto@christisall.org

Grace and peace,

Bretto

]]> By: John http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-8133 John Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:56:27 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-8133 So frank, it seems in short that the first church ran by the seat of its pants hoping that Christ is the head somewhere and running it the right way, through the people, they did in the New Testement have a multitude of problems in most of their churches (they all left Paul in Asia), and what you say makes sense, but human nature is to take the lead when you think someone else is not doing it right, (just as you have done with your article hear, you by default have raised yourself up as an authority in a strage kind of way to those who run an authoritve church). I'm not saying your wrong I'm saying there is always someone in charge of Gods church to tell us what to do or what we are doing wrong or can do better, some people (sad but true ) just want to be dumb sheep and be told/lead and not exert any gift at all in the church maybe these are the weak we will always have amonsg us. How many problems do you have in your church because no one is in charge?. Someone in charge in HUMILITY is a healthy thing, I guess your saying its when you get puffed up, Christ can't operate. So frank, it seems in short that the first church ran by the seat of its pants hoping that Christ is the head somewhere and running it the right way, through the people, they did in the New Testement have a multitude of problems in most of their churches (they all left Paul in Asia), and what you say makes sense, but human nature is to take the lead when you think someone else is not doing it right, (just as you have done with your article hear, you by default have raised yourself up as an authority in a strage kind of way to those who run an authoritve church). I’m not saying your wrong I’m saying there is always someone in charge of Gods church to tell us what to do or what we are doing wrong or can do better, some people (sad but true ) just want to be dumb sheep and be told/lead and not exert any gift at all in the church maybe these are the weak we will always have amonsg us. How many problems do you have in your church because no one is in charge?. Someone in charge in HUMILITY is a healthy thing, I guess your saying its when you get puffed up, Christ can’t operate.

]]> By: Jennifer http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-3359 Jennifer Tue, 27 Mar 2007 15:54:20 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-3359 This is very well thought out. I appreciate the time you took to write this. Very sobering yet encouraging words. Thank you. I will be linking this on my blog today! God bless, Jen This is very well thought out. I appreciate the time you took to write this. Very sobering yet encouraging words.

Thank you. I will be linking this on my blog today!

God bless,
Jen

]]> By: davemurray http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-3236 davemurray Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:34:43 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/2007/03/13/rethinking-the-five-fold-minisry-by-frank-viola/#comment-3236 1 Cor 1:27 tells me the only reason God chose me was 'cause I'm an IDIOT. Then it gives me another reason...because I'm a WOOS. Then Eph 2:12 says it was because I'm just plain HOPELESS. So there you have it...a flippin' hopeless good-4-nothin' with crap for brains and I fight like a girl! Ya wouldn't think "Lord, keep me from pride!" would be too much a faith-stretch. Yet I constantly find ways to exalt myself. Titles impress me. Praises entice me. I have a choice. I can minister daily before the Cross, hiding myself in Him, seeking His approval only, stripping myself of Self and learning from those who follow in His footsteps... Or I can pursue a career at the First Church of the Hypoctites, a weekly celebration of our stupidity as a race. Honor and titles and praise in this life mean disgrace, humiliation and shame in the next. Push on 4 Jesus.!!...............................well said, Franky! 1 Cor 1:27 tells me the only reason God chose me was ’cause I’m an IDIOT.
Then it gives me another reason…because I’m a WOOS.
Then Eph 2:12 says it was because I’m just plain HOPELESS.
So there you have it…a flippin’ hopeless good-4-nothin’ with crap for brains and I fight like a girl!
Ya wouldn’t think “Lord, keep me from pride!” would be too much a faith-stretch.
Yet I constantly find ways to exalt myself.
Titles impress me. Praises entice me.
I have a choice. I can minister daily before the Cross, hiding myself in Him, seeking His approval only, stripping myself of Self and learning from those who follow in His footsteps…
Or I can pursue a career at the First Church of the Hypoctites, a weekly celebration of our stupidity as a race.
Honor and titles and praise in this life mean disgrace, humiliation and shame in the next.
Push on 4 Jesus.!!………………………….well said, Franky!

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