Comments on: Mortify the Arm of the Flesh - Part 10 http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/ Making Him Our Focus, His Word Our Foundation Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:59:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Brett Jacobsen http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/#comment-23829 Brett Jacobsen Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:19:43 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/?p=207#comment-23829 Hi Kate, Let me respond to your comment: "I don’t look to pattern myself after NT examples and I’m tired of hearing people preach about it telling others “you must do this” or “you must not do that”. Sounds like the Law to me. I believe we are to learn from them, but not try to copy them." Firstly, I didn't say we are to "copy" anything. This is what I said: "In fact the two imperatives in New Testament life are that we are in constant love communion with the Lord and consistent love community with the saints who He has called us to relate to: Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like to it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matt 22:36-40) " "New Testament life" is not a reference to making the NT writtings a law (as you suggested I at least inferred). NT life is living life under the New Covenant/Testament rather than the Old Testament/Covenant. I don't think it's wise to tout legalism when something doesn't fit what we're comfortable with, or if we don't fully understand something. In the above quote from Matt it is Jesus who sums the whole law and the prophets up in two points - love God, love neighbour. It is Jesus who chose the early apostles to convey His gospel message. I didn't say we are to copy the exact way the early church functioned; I was saying that Jesus and also the NT writtings and the early apostles are an example [Gk- tupos] for us. We take the principles of the NT writtings and apply them by the Spirit's leading. The NT writtings are weighed heavy with loving people and living in community with other believers. Are you suggesting that Jesus and the apostles and the early church who saw and heard Jesus, emphasised love relationship and Christ focused community by accident or that they were mistaken? It's about time we stop swinging too far out to the other extreme of systemic church, becoming reactionary, and making excuses for REMAINING alone (remember I agree with desert/cave seasons). Yes the system is corrupt, yes congregations and human constructs are erroneous, yes we aren't legally compelled to "have church" but also, yes we are to live life in love relationship with others who are in Christ as He taught and as His first apostles reafirmed and as the first fruits of the Lamb tried to live. Peace, Bretto Hi Kate,

Let me respond to your comment: “I don’t look to pattern myself after NT examples and I’m tired of hearing people preach about it telling others “you must do this” or “you must not do that”. Sounds like the Law to me. I believe we are to learn from them, but not try to copy them.”

Firstly, I didn’t say we are to “copy” anything. This is what I said:

“In fact the two imperatives in New Testament life are that we are in constant love communion with the Lord and consistent love community with the saints who He has called us to relate to:

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like to it, you shall love your neighbour as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matt 22:36-40) ”

“New Testament life” is not a reference to making the NT writtings a law (as you suggested I at least inferred). NT life is living life under the New Covenant/Testament rather than the Old Testament/Covenant.

I don’t think it’s wise to tout legalism when something doesn’t fit what we’re comfortable with, or if we don’t fully understand something. In the above quote from Matt it is Jesus who sums the whole law and the prophets up in two points - love God, love neighbour. It is Jesus who chose the early apostles to convey His gospel message. I didn’t say we are to copy the exact way the early church functioned; I was saying that Jesus and also the NT writtings and the early apostles are an example [Gk- tupos] for us. We take the principles of the NT writtings and apply them by the Spirit’s leading.

The NT writtings are weighed heavy with loving people and living in community with other believers. Are you suggesting that Jesus and the apostles and the early church who saw and heard Jesus, emphasised love relationship and Christ focused community by accident or that they were mistaken?

It’s about time we stop swinging too far out to the other extreme of systemic church, becoming reactionary, and making excuses for REMAINING alone (remember I agree with desert/cave seasons). Yes the system is corrupt, yes congregations and human constructs are erroneous, yes we aren’t legally compelled to “have church” but also, yes we are to live life in love relationship with others who are in Christ as He taught and as His first apostles reafirmed and as the first fruits of the Lamb tried to live.

Peace,

Bretto

]]> By: Kate http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/#comment-23755 Kate Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:33:14 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/?p=207#comment-23755 I'm all for the Body becoming healthy (wholeness amongst the ekklesia) and I believe because of our unbelief and stubborness that it will take time and patience. I don't look to pattern myself after NT examples and I'm tired of hearing people preach about it telling others "you must do this" or "you must not do that". Sounds like the Law to me. I believe we are to learn from them, but not try to copy them. This kind of thinking leads us away once again from the truth of why the Holy Spirit has been given. He must teach us and we will be weaned from other aids. Once again, I do appreciate the desire and passion to see Christ's Body whole. By faith I see it(Him) fully healed and functioning. There is a time and season for everything. I will be glad and happy when I have much fellowship with other believers and I will be glad and happy when I have little or none. I’m all for the Body becoming healthy (wholeness amongst the ekklesia) and I believe because of our unbelief and stubborness that it will take time and patience. I don’t look to pattern myself after NT examples and I’m tired of hearing people preach about it telling others “you must do this” or “you must not do that”. Sounds like the Law to me. I believe we are to learn from them, but not try to copy them. This kind of thinking leads us away once again from the truth of why the Holy Spirit has been given. He must teach us and we will be weaned from other aids. Once again, I do appreciate the desire and passion to see Christ’s Body whole. By faith I see it(Him) fully healed and functioning. There is a time and season for everything. I will be glad and happy when I have much fellowship with other believers and I will be glad and happy when I have little or none.

]]> By: Brett Jacobsen http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/#comment-23631 Brett Jacobsen Tue, 22 Jul 2008 02:02:49 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/?p=207#comment-23631 Dear Kate and Rose, In 'Heaven's Underground Blueprint' and other writtings/teachings I've done I do speak of desert/cave seasons. Yes God takes us through somewhat secluded seasons at times (especially on the way out of congregationalism). Perhaps I should have re-iterated in this article that there are seasons like that. However, there is a good reason that the Lord inspired me to write the article in question- It is not normative for Christians desiring to live by His Word and Spirit to CONTINUE as a loner. Yes, there are seasons and yes, some are called to a bit of a prolonged season in the desert/cave, but if we are to operate in a NT fashion we will find (by the Spirit's leading) people to love and commune with in Christ; despite our hurts/failures from past experience. Also, don't forget what I said in the previous nine articles. I am in no way speaking of joining any group or congregation, just following God to meet and mutually encourage those who He has called me to; that's for all of us. This is how the world will see and believe- if we love each other and live in oneness (not ecumenical "unity"): "That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me." (John 17:21) Rose, you said "all believers are not the same nor are we called to walk the same path or at the same pace". I didn't say we were the same or that we should walk the same path or at the same pace. I simply was re-enforcing a biblical picture of NT community and relationship which applies to all who are in Christ. Of course the pace in which He moves us varies and the finer details of the picture He paints with our lifes will be greatly diverse. But, if we are free from hurt and truly moving forward in His Love, the core picture will be the same- love to and from Him as well as love to and from other believers who He has called us to. This is not to condem those who are not there yet but to encourage them to persevere despite all the set backs. Yes we may only be part-way along the journey, but it is important that we continue on the journey which leads to Kingdom of Christ wholeness amongst the ekklesia- called ones which will make the world see and believe in Him. Gospel love, Bretto Dear Kate and Rose,

In ‘Heaven’s Underground Blueprint’ and other writtings/teachings I’ve done I do speak of desert/cave seasons. Yes God takes us through somewhat secluded seasons at times (especially on the way out of congregationalism).

Perhaps I should have re-iterated in this article that there are seasons like that.

However, there is a good reason that the Lord inspired me to write the article in question- It is not normative for Christians desiring to live by His Word and Spirit to CONTINUE as a loner.

Yes, there are seasons and yes, some are called to a bit of a prolonged season in the desert/cave, but if we are to operate in a NT fashion we will find (by the Spirit’s leading) people to love and commune with in Christ; despite our hurts/failures from past experience.

Also, don’t forget what I said in the previous nine articles. I am in no way speaking of joining any group or congregation, just following God to meet and mutually encourage those who He has called me to; that’s for all of us. This is how the world will see and believe- if we love each other and live in oneness (not ecumenical “unity”):

“That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.” (John 17:21)

Rose, you said “all believers are not the same nor are we called to walk the same path or at the same pace”.

I didn’t say we were the same or that we should walk the same path or at the same pace. I simply was re-enforcing a biblical picture of NT community and relationship which applies to all who are in Christ. Of course the pace in which He moves us varies and the finer details of the picture He paints with our lifes will be greatly diverse. But, if we are free from hurt and truly moving forward in His Love, the core picture will be the same- love to and from Him as well as love to and from other believers who He has called us to. This is not to condem those who are not there yet but to encourage them to persevere despite all the set backs.

Yes we may only be part-way along the journey, but it is important that we continue on the journey which leads to Kingdom of Christ wholeness amongst the ekklesia- called ones which will make the world see and believe in Him.

Gospel love,

Bretto

]]> By: Rose http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/#comment-23403 Rose Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:59:36 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/?p=207#comment-23403 I too can relate to Kate. I know for me personally leaving the institutional church and all that comes with it is a very difficult process to complete that not only includes the healing process but also learning to live entirely dependant on God and less on others. I fellowship with a small group of believers a couple times a month and I also interact with others on a daily basis whether they're believers or not which provide many opportunities to be encouraged and encouraging to others and to share Christ's love. I too trust that God will know when it's time to move on to the next season. The one thing I have learned and truley appreciate is that all believers are not the same nor are we called to walk the same path or at the same pace. From the moment that I first knew that God was leading my heart to leave the institutional church until the day I finally left, 10 years had passed. Why? Because God is always faithful to complete the work that he begins. I too can relate to Kate. I know for me personally leaving the institutional church and all that comes with it is a very difficult process to complete that not only includes the healing process but also learning to live entirely dependant on God and less on others. I fellowship with a small group of believers a couple times a month and I also interact with others on a daily basis whether they’re believers or not which provide many opportunities to be encouraged and encouraging to others and to share Christ’s love. I too trust that God will know when it’s time to move on to the next season. The one thing I have learned and truley appreciate is that all believers are not the same nor are we called to walk the same path or at the same pace. From the moment that I first knew that God was leading my heart to leave the institutional church until the day I finally left, 10 years had passed. Why? Because God is always faithful to complete the work that he begins.

]]> By: Kate http://www.christisall.org/2008/07/17/mortify-the-arm-of-the-flesh-part-10/#comment-23328 Kate Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:05:47 +0000 http://www.christisall.org/?p=207#comment-23328 I speak from personal experience when I say that only after I have been removed from the physical bodies of Christians did I come to know the what the real Body of Christ was. It has also been during this physical removal that He reveal Christ in me. Now Christ in me is birthing within me His love for all, Christians and non-Christians and I continue to trust Him to lead me to whatever kind of fellowship He sees fit for me. I don't decide what He needs done or with who, He does. I think that we care more about what other people think about our "seclusion" when the Lord chooses to set us aside alone with Him to do what He needs done with us. If we follow Paul as he followed Christ, we see the pattern of God dealing one on one with us. In Paul's case it was for three years. I speak from personal experience when I say that only after I have been removed from the physical bodies of Christians did I come to know the what the real Body of Christ was. It has also been during this physical removal that He reveal Christ in me. Now Christ in me is birthing within me His love for all, Christians and non-Christians and I continue to trust Him to lead me to whatever kind of fellowship He sees fit for me. I don’t decide what He needs done or with who, He does.

I think that we care more about what other people think about our “seclusion” when the Lord chooses to set us aside alone with Him to do what He needs done with us. If we follow Paul as he followed Christ, we see the pattern of God dealing one on one with us. In Paul’s case it was for three years.

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